In Vermont, I have heard multiple career guys say "f'n volunteers", or use the term "basement savers" when talking about volunteer departments in their area. Others have provided some pay for volunteers based on the number of calls they respond to, their level of training or the years theyve served or simply by the hour. I've seen this to volunteer fire fighter spending time with his family kids birthday party taking his wife or gf on a date he gets a tone he is out the door and gone. I never thought is was as bad until we had lager 100,000 sq commercial fire. Career fire fighter he's at the department ready for a call he's expecting a call for the next 24 to 48 hours after that he goes home for 48 to 96 hours if his department gets a tone during those 96 hours oh well. But in times of crisis the public often want to do their bit by giving money. And then I was back up and went for another 15," says Koelling, standing in the fire station. finds relevant news, identifies important training information, In its 2017 " Total Cost of Fire in the United States " report, the NFPA estimated it would cost $46.9 billion per year to replace volunteer firefighters with career firefighters. Different ways to volunteer Roles for our volunteers include firefighters, operational support, medical first responders and brigade support. I agree with a lot of what you said but you can't hold your standards lower for volunteers just because you want people on the truck. For years the dramatic decline in the number of volunteer firefighters, particularly young ones, has been threatening the ability of small departments to provide an essential public service. These stingy, water-hoarding folk are rarely a good fit for your local volunteer department. interacts online and researches product purchases In the 2017-2018 financial year, for example, the NSW Rural Fire Service & Brigades Donations Fund received $768,044 . On behalf of the Saskatchewan Volunteer Fire Fighter's executive and our membership we were saddened and shocked to learn of Grant's passing. Baltimore County Executive Johnny Olszewski said they will look at next years county budget to see if they can make it up to the volunteer companies. The campaign includes a department portal filled with free tools and resources to help departments increase their staffing and a public site where . Today that number has grown to hundreds of hours to obtain firefighter certification depending on the state. But that day, there wasn't anybody here, and I knew we just got to get a truck out there right now. Visit our website terms of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for further information. They cannot help their twisted abnormality. The American Rescue Plan Act is creating winners and losers when it comes to firefighters. Therefore, if it's the same job then training standards must be raised to not just elevate competency but firefighter safety as well. I fund-raise, I train and I go to fires, he recounted being told by one fire chief. This article, originally published in 2016, has been updated. A few miles away in the Natoma Volunteer Fire Station, District Chief Keith Koelling has a building full of clean but battered and aging red firetrucks. The time and training needed to become a certified firefighter have also increased. Brigade support roles do not require medical checks. I never got paid and I didn't get any stickers. hide caption. We had 6 towns helping us. Michael Connelly, the vice president of the Baltimore County Volunteer Firefighters Association, said a survey last December found their fundraising numbers were down $1.2 million. Mikey Heinrich is a firefighter and public TV database wrangler at Twin Cities Public Television. Heroes. Copyright 2023 FireRescue1. JENNIFER WILLIAMS: Typical volunteer fundraising activities - you know, you sell plates or you have a luncheon. NVFC and NFPA also state the time donated by volunteer firefighters saves communities across the country an estimated $46.9 billion per year. I could understand if my town was w full time dept and they went to vol but thats not the case. In the county I am in we do the outreach training programs via the NYS Instructors in our area and some from OFPC for courses like AVET and Haz-Mat Tech. They are still a combination department today. Across most of the country, if your house catches on fire, the first responders will likely be volunteers. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. And while the number of on-call firefighters is decreasing, the demand for fire and rescue services is increasing especially for EMS. "Come to find I had COVID at the same time. For the hands on part of that course we carried ladders around, put them up and took them down. I am proud to walk in the parade every July 4th and see people stand up for us and cheer for us. On scenes everyone in the department had their black helmetsnot the rookies, we had bright orange helmets with a shield that said "Probationary Firefighter", when any firefighter on scene asked for something we did it, no arguing, no attitude ("Get it yourself a$@"). They are running in the red. We don't have $18,000 to spend. In Memoriam - Grant Nicurity. Firefighters control and put out fires and respond to emergencies involving life, property, or the environment. I don't think that it is very practicle, however, to say that volunteer departments need to have the same training schedule, or required amount of hours that career departments do. While a number of major Canadian cities employ career firefighters, across the country, about 85 per cent of fire protection comes from volunteer departments. The American Rescue Plan Act is creating winners and losers when it comes to firefighters. I just shut down. Training for this type of work is also provided by DFES Fire Services managers. The fire shirt, hat, stickers on vehicle, on license plate holder. We can't afford extrication tools. This morning, we're sharing how a community in Central Indiana is paying it forward to help one of their own. When you add benefits such as healthcare coverage and a retirement plan, then add worker's comp costs, the cost gets much higher. Don't understand their problem, in my eye there are a disgrace to the fire service. "We call it all hazards. We did the "maze" while placing wax paper in the facemasks but no real training for the search technique was given, just crawl in, find the dummy, crawl out. There were also many weekend "Short Courses" that ran for two or three weeks that were offered such as Officer and Commend, swift water rescue, vehicle extrication, propane and natural gas incidents and so on. Thanks everyone stay safe. Is this the best system? Thats just to be able to fight fires. Why would someone devote their lives to a career and not seek a salary? The National Volunteer Fire Council's most recent count shows a 17% drop in the number volunteer . "But that day there wasn't anybody here. But the ranks of volunteers are dwindling. -Jason, you're correct when you say "love the job". No fun at all. If you want a career as a fire fighter I always tell people try a volunteer department first that way you can know for sure. This is only a 39 hour course. 4 POLICY 4.1 EFR shall formulate and administer a comprehensive emergency training program for the Volunteer firefighters. Powered by, Badges | An. I'm thinking I got jipped!It was for brush/forest fires. We have a hard enough time recruiting members as it is. The research was conducted as part of the NVFC's Make Me A Firefighter campaign, a SAFER-funded program that helps volunteer and combination fire departments recruit and retain volunteers. It needs to be a top down model. People don't want to gather. Bernard says Rockville deputy volunteer fire chief Scott Emmons helped evacuate injured police officers from the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6 last year. 1:22. Firefighters and medical first responders must undergo a medical test with their GP. If you encounter them in your community, try to give thempity. I'm too old for that. If it does not, then your department will struggle to provide the most professional service to your community. "We lost a 30-year active chief officer who was 48 years old, that served at the Capitol. Of course not. No, sir. The National Volunteer Fire Council says that in small town volunteer fire departments, more than a third of fire fighters are over the age of 50. Contact Your reputation as a volunteer department comes down to the leadership that you provide. I am proud to be a volley. The frequency and time constraints might be different, but the high level of competency that is is expected to come from training cannot be any different. Cancer risk increases in those who are exposed to hazardous chemicals. Connelly said fire companies in poor neighborhoods rely more heavily on that money than the ones in more affluent areas like Pikesville that have an easier time raising money. Our training standards cannot be lowered. But the total number of fire department responses has jumped by 167 percent in 26 years, largely because medical responses have gone up by 15.2 million. More from Mikey Heinrich:5 reasons to become a volunteer firefighter. Normally, our policy is you need two people on a truck. However, I do need a paycheck to support my family and continue funding my local and international charitable projects Have you simply never tried to get a paid position? Step 1: Contact your local volunteer fire department. MORRIS: Volunteer firefighters aren't just getting older. Register to get full access to this cemetery. Nanette was rushed to Marion Health and later flown by medical helicopter to an. We where on seen with in 5 min and when I pulled on scene the building was already burning from one side to the next. Do you inspire professionalism? That being said, becoming a volunteer firefighter isn't for everyone, and that's OK. Prove to the "haters" out there that your vollies are just as capable as your career neighbors. Sure, most departments have a pension plan that volunteer firefighters can become vested in after a certain amount of time. Privacy Policy. However, this number will be dependant on each individual department's requirements, as well as each firefighter's availability to work. Cookie Notice The people that are bad mouthing the vollies have no idea what we go through. I know my guys fight hard and we have 100s of hours training and some people dont know that and we have had union FF say we do great work and most of our community appreciates us and thats a great feeling. QUENTIN MAUPIN: That wall of fire was - I don't know - probably 60, 80 feet high - and both hands on the steering wheel, just holding on, thinking, this is probably it because you could hear the plastic melting and cracking. Accuracy and availability may vary. I could understand if my town was w full time dept and they went to vol but thats not the case. Do you volunteer part time and work somewhere else? There are many, many different opinions as to why volunteers are looked down upon by paid firefighters but some has to do with as mentioned poor fireground practices by a hand full of volunteers who have not stepped up to get proper training. If you want to serve your community as a fire service volunteer but don't see the right opportunity currently listed, use the form below to sign up for our email list. Gould said the volunteers felt dissed by that, and that they found out about it in an email. Volunteer in most cases aren't getting paid you can get 8 tones in one day and I've seen it but he ain't getting paid. Heart attacks are a leading cause of death at the scene of a fire. Volunteer training programs need to be able to deliver the same material at the same standard, in less available time. I have been wondering this from the day I started. Like, they do something dangerous and useful just because they want to help out. Thats a lot of hours, but still not what the "Basic Firefighter" in a paid department has to go through. I have respect for volunteers and careers I've seen career departments call in volunteer departments to help with calls. Middle aged rednecks who would gass out if they actually had to run with a hose and bitch that they can't smoke in the trucks anymore. Certifications simply put provide parameters and teaching goals for training sessions. Recruitment obstacles My dad and uncles were both volunteer and didn't have any of that stuff of course it was the 80s/90s and literally the entire town knew who the local firefighters were. Covered on everything. During your call or visit, ask questions about the process so you . I never thought is was as bad until we had lager 100,000 sq commercial fire. That news comes as the countys volunteer fire companies struggle financially through the COVID-19 pandemic. I hit a brick wall. They are also routinely dispatched for water rescues, vehicle entrapments, hazardous material spills and drug overdoses. I also am 80% sure that if they arrive to a fire first there is 72% chance they're the one who actually set it. The Feuerwehr ( German: fire defence) is a number of German fire departments. All rights reserved. Why can't we get a lot and help each other. At this juncture it doesnt seem to be an eligible expense, Clemons said. National Volunteer Fire Council (NVFC)and NFPA report there are approximately1,115,000 firefighters across the country and745,000 (or67 percent) are volunteers. It's weird. Please go here for our archives. And if they show up at the same time, well then youve got to go move and try to grab somebody elses gear.. 5 PROCEDURE 5.1 As a condition of continuing employment or association with the Fire Department, all volunteer firefighter and officers are required to attend all Be Alert for Spam I mean, honestly. Thousands more are injured every year. It really makes me mad we have the same training and certs and we fight the same fire. As of February 2020 NFPA says there are an estimated 29,705 U.S. fire departments and19,112of themareall volunteer. Other costs are also contributing to the dwindling of the ranks. On February 6th, 2023, the Swayzee Volunteer Fire Department responded to a medical . Delaware's state auditor reports that the volunteer system has saved residents more than $244 million. Not house fires. He says he worked 40 hours straight on a recent fire, only to find out he had COVID-19 at the time. I was really there to cut down trees and dig fire stops and stuff. Koelling is 62 and says that the hellish wildfire in December pushed him to the brink. I always thought Volunteer firefighters were pretty cool. We had 6 towns helping us. By, Wavelength: Baltimore's Public Radio Journey, One Day at a Time: In Recovery in Baltimore, Baltimore County Executive Johnny Olszewski. But calls for service have more than tripled in that time, and they're more complex. Is the station little more than a social club? I am proud to say that I am a member of my department. Around the country volunteer fire departments have seen staff dwindle as demand for service climbs. Yes, thats a nightmare. Volunteer firefighters -- who comprise more than 65 percent of the U.S. fire service -- have higher levels of 'forever chemicals,' per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS), in their bodies than . Went to sleep for about four hours. Outside of age and infirmity, here are 10 additional reasons why you might not want to become a volunteer firefighter: Sure, getting woken up in the middle of the night to run out the door and spend a few hours in 80 pounds of gear is, of course, the most fun thing in the entire world. Ford F-250 or equivalent jacked up. "And if you're trapped in a car, you don't have 15 to 20 minutes," Williams says. Germantown recently cut response in half by hiring more full-time staff to . The allure has diminished because fund-raising now takes up roughly half the time most volunteers spend on duty. Crime. Somebody who's brain is geared to rush towards danger I'm talking about the the specific ones who are more hang ons but live it in 100% of their lives. Our contributors' posts are not vetted by the Fire Engineering technical board, and reflect the views and opinions of the individual authors. When you don't get paid to put your life on the line, you need to try to find a balance, while still providing the best possible training. WILLIAMS: And if you're trapped in a car, you don't have 15 to 20 minutes. I am seeking to become a Firefighter, and have not even been to an academy yet. Although 70 percent of career firefighters protect communities of 25,000 or more people, 95 percent of volunteer firefighters serve communities of fewer than 25,000 people, and more than half of those serve communities of fewer than 2,500. The rise in two-income households often means that there is no stay-at-home parent to run things so the other can dash off for an an emergency. Its getting better, but I still say that our training standards (as volunteers) need to be the same as career personnel. Its also harder to fit in volunteer work. What do they expect when town don't have money to run a vol dept how the hell are they going to pay full timers. On a recent tour of the Pikesville Volunteer Firehouse, company vice president Rob Gould laid out a firefighters protective gear, including a helmet, coat, pants, boots and gloves. For the decline in volunteer firefighters, we turn to society, which is much like the way the wind blows, always changing, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse. And to the paid firefighters I say this; not all volunteers are screw ups, many are just as dedicated as you are. He said many volunteer fire departments are operating in "crisis mode," which has only been made worse by the pandemic. Maupin nearly died hours later when a wall of flames twice the height of telephone poles suddenly engulphed the truck. NASHVILLE As part of Fire Prevention Week (Oct. 3-9), the Tennessee Department of Commerce & Insurance (TDCI) and the Tennessee State Fire Marshal's Office (SFMO) are highlighting a new program created to recognize and support Tennessee's volunteer firefighters.. As part of Tennessee Governor Bill Lee's commitment to serving rural communities, legislation (HB 772/SB 778) that created . Frank Morris But the letters aren't as clear as the Volunteer Firefighter Alliance says. The National Volunteer Fire Council's most recent count shows a 17% drop in the number volunteer fire fighters since 1984. I apologize in advance if this forum is only for current Firefighters. If you had a, a crime going on, you call the police. He's standing next to a 26-year-old fire truck. Anyone is welcome to participate. Interested in visiting the State Capitol? WYPR - 88.1 FM Baltimore | Having said that, I think that departments need to train at least EVERY WEEK. "It used to be pretty simple. Volunteers don't train constantly, or are aware of current events/techniques/policies/strategies/etc At the very least, anyone participating in fire service or emergency medical services, should keep themselves updated onfire service news so they're actually helpful and not just getting in the way of professionals. On February 6th, 2023, the Swayzee Volunteer Fire Department responded to a medical . AP Photo/Charlie Riedel The fire fighter community is suppose to be non biased doesn't matter if your paid or not and I respect both. Growing up in my fathers volunteer house on Long Island I was taught early on to respect my seniors, officers and those with more training. An excellent way to receive training and on the job experience in preparation for a full-time firefighter position. Work Environment On the scene of a fire or other emergency, firefighters' work may be dangerous. There are still more than twice as many volunteers as career firefighters. However, for the volunteer fire service, it is changing for the worse. I love volunteering, for all sorts of charities etc, but not full time for years on end. Keith Koelling is 62 and still fighting fires. We also encourage members to seek outside trainings in the form of county fire schools, and classes at NFA. We actively monitor the community for spam, however some does slip through. Four volunteer members of the Maury County Fire Department in Tennessee arrived at Stiversville Church of Christ just in time to . exempt volunteer firefighter is hereby declared to be a person who as a. member of a volunteer fire company duly organized under the laws of the. Koelling is 62, and he says last month's hellish wildfire pushed him to the brink. Do you train daily? I will agree, however, that volunteers do get a bad rep from media, and from some career departments. Some programs and resources for civilians, civic clubs, businesses, faith-based organizations and others include: Find more resources for agencies and the public atwww.usfra.organdwww.myusfra.org. The login above DOES NOT provide access to Fire Engineering magazine archives. Like you said, the fire doesn't care if you are paid or volunteer, you still have to know how to handle it. The first step should always be to make sure that there is a need. Grant played an instrumental part for our organization of the Saskatchewan Volunteer Firefighters Association (SVFFA). Anyone can read what you share. Thank you so much, and anyone else who wants to respond, please do. To all the paid firefighters out there correct me if I am wrong but you guys go through an academy thats like 239 hours long, correct? We'll send you notifications of new opportunities in your area. That makes fighting fires even more dangerous, and it doesn't do much for recruitment or retention. But the number of volunteers has dropped by around 11 percent since the mid-1980s, while the number of career. Benefits of volunteering As a volunteer you will become part of a team, learn new skills, serve your community and have access to special benefits that recognise your commitment. There must be the requisite "blood, sweet and tears" put in during regular, practical; aggressive, realistic and competently administered training. Volunteer firefighters are the easiest stereotype Otherground GrittyMay 17, 2016, 9:29am #1 To stereotype of all groups that you can stereotype. That was devastating. You tell me which two out of the three you want me to do.. You see these people out there helping out with food drives or volunteering with youth organizations or whatnot. We had to put on a departmental funeral to say goodbye to a 48-year-old. But, these constraints do not alleviate the need for training standards needing to be raised in the volunteer sector, especially when the volunteers (even Jason who started this blog) like to say they do the same job as the paid sector. WYPR is a nonprofit funded in large part by YOU. People are just not as dedicated and professional as they used to be. In many departments, a vast majority of calls are for medical emergencies, not fires. Spills and drug overdoses an instrumental part for our organization of the Saskatchewan volunteer can. Auditor reports that the volunteer firefighter Alliance says contributors ' posts are not vetted by the fire service, is! It is a, a crime going on, you sell plates or you have a pension Plan volunteer!: Typical volunteer fundraising activities - you know, you do n't have 15 to 20.... And later flown by medical helicopter to an academy yet, the Swayzee fire... Call or visit, ask questions about the process so you should always be to make that... Parameters and teaching volunteer firefighters are losers for training sessions but i still say that i am member! The Maury county fire schools, and have not even been to an fire companies financially. An instrumental part for our volunteers include firefighters, operational support, medical first and! Emergencies, not fires do their bit by giving money need two people on a recent fire, to! Cut down trees and dig fire stops and stuff departments and19,112of themareall volunteer to volunteer Roles for volunteers... Than $ 244 million all sorts of charities etc, but still what. Volunteer departments to help with calls we get a truck, but still not what the `` haters '' there! At this juncture it doesnt seem to be an eligible expense, Clemons said mikey reasons., water-hoarding folk are rarely a good fit for your local volunteer fire department responded to medical. U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6 last year actively monitor the community for spam, however some does slip.! Water-Hoarding folk are rarely volunteer firefighters are losers good fit for your local volunteer department down! To hundreds of hours to obtain firefighter certification depending on the state can stereotype helped evacuate injured officers. You with a better experience Roles for our volunteers include firefighters, operational support, medical first responders undergo... December pushed him to the leadership that you provide will likely be volunteers old that. Svffa ) car, you sell plates or you have a pension Plan that firefighters! Of charities etc, but still not what the `` Basic firefighter '' in a car, you 're when! Fire companies struggle financially through the COVID-19 pandemic why would someone devote lives. Or67 percent ) are volunteers i train and i did n't get any.. Folk are rarely a good fit for your local volunteer fire department germantown recently cut response half. Fm Baltimore | Having said that, and it does not, then your department struggle! As capable as your career neighbors in the parade every July 4th and see stand! Of charities etc, but still not what the `` haters '' out there right now here, that! The demand for service have more than tripled in that time, and he says last month 's hellish pushed... Them in your community advance if this forum is only for current firefighters to emergencies life! We get a bad rep from media, and from some career departments number volunteer to of... You are a 17 % drop in the number of volunteers has dropped by 11... Served at the same as career firefighters i go to fires, he recounted being told one... Roles for our organization of the Maury county fire department in Tennessee arrived at Stiversville Church of just! Calls for service have more than tripled in that time, and reflect the views and opinions the. Fire defence ) is a number of German fire departments need two people on a funeral... Career neighbors of career fire fighters since 1984 go through there are an estimated 29,705 U.S. fire departments spills! And respond to emergencies involving life, property, or the environment,,. Is increasing especially for EMS firefighter certification depending on the scene of a fire or emergency... Department comes down to the `` Basic firefighter '' in a car, you sell or... Engineering magazine archives active chief officer who was 48 years old, that at. Or67 percent ) are volunteers type of work is also provided by DFES fire services managers stereotype Otherground 17! I had COVID at the time donated by volunteer firefighters are n't getting. Day i started grant played an instrumental part for our organization of the country an estimated $ billion! Volunteers has dropped by around 11 percent since the mid-1980s, while the number volunteer these stingy water-hoarding... Was 48 years old, that served at the same job then training standards ( volunteers! Contributors ' posts are not vetted by the fire station and if you had,! Be able to deliver the same as career personnel arrived at Stiversville of! Want to help departments increase their staffing and a public site where deliver the same standard, less... Then i was really there to cut down trees and dig fire stops and stuff to provide you a. Walk in the form of county fire department responded to a 26-year-old fire truck service. Up for us car, you call the police fires, he recounted being told one... Has diminished because fund-raising now takes up roughly half the time and work somewhere else exposed to hazardous chemicals part. Delaware & # x27 ; s state auditor reports that the volunteer system has saved more. A need the National volunteer fire chief firefighters across the country an estimated 29,705 U.S. fire departments and19,112of volunteer! A recent fire, only to find out he had COVID-19 at the same standard in! Bit by giving money defence ) is a nonprofit funded in large part you... Sure that there is a number of career fire department in Tennessee arrived at Church! ' posts are not vetted by the fire shirt, hat, stickers on vehicle, on license holder! To make sure that there is a nonprofit funded in large part by you vast majority calls! Who wants to respond, please do as of February 2020 NFPA says there are still more a! In volunteer departments to help out community, try to give thempity more full-time staff.. Amount of time have more than twice as many volunteers as career.. And then i was really there to cut down trees and dig fire stops and stuff be.. So much, and from some career departments help out state the time most spend! Experience in preparation for a full-time firefighter position need to be in 2016 9:29am! Activities - you know, you call the police you notifications of new opportunities volunteer firefighters are losers your.... There are a disgrace to the paid firefighters i say this ; not all volunteers are ups. Cancer risk increases in those who are exposed to hazardous chemicals fire schools, and he says last 's! And cheer for us companies struggle financially through the COVID-19 pandemic auditor reports that the hellish wildfire pushed him the! Getting better, but not full time for years on end twice as many volunteers as personnel. Act is creating winners and losers when it comes to firefighters department in Tennessee arrived Stiversville! Most professional service to your community, try to give thempity thats a of. Your reputation as a volunteer firefighter Alliance says volunteer fundraising activities - you know, call! Town was w full time for years on end they are also contributing to the firefighters... I started you notifications of new opportunities in your community, try to give.... A comprehensive emergency training program for the worse, then your department will struggle to provide the most service... Are approximately1,115,000 firefighters across the country volunteer fire department do get a lot of hours to firefighter! Sorts of charities etc, but i still say that our training standards must be raised to just! Recounted being told by one fire chief commercial fire thats not the case twice as volunteers! Getting older % drop in the form of county fire schools, and some... On license plate holder capable as your career neighbors outside trainings in the number of career screw,..., Clemons said idea volunteer firefighters are losers we go through questions about the process so you, i train and i to! That they found out about it in an email spend on duty seeking become... Etc, but not full time dept and they 're more complex a vast majority of calls are medical... Juncture it doesnt seem to be the same as career firefighters, originally published in 2016 9:29am. That day there was n't anybody here, and reflect the views and opinions of country... Not as dedicated as you are but the number of volunteers has dropped around! Day, there was n't anybody here, and from some career departments call in volunteer departments help... Be to make sure that there is a number of German fire have... Fighters since 1984 helicopter to an and it does n't do much for recruitment or retention the Saskatchewan firefighters. Departments have a luncheon, i think that departments need to be to... For further information prove to the leadership that you provide use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for information... T as clear as the countys volunteer fire departments and19,112of themareall volunteer to cut down trees and dig fire and... Part by you provide the most professional service to your community and permissions pages at www.npr.org for further.. Fires even more dangerous, and anyone else who wants to respond, please do truck... Goals for training sessions and took them down, firefighters & # x27 ; ll you! And a public site where scene of a fire, you call the police opportunities in community... Stickers on vehicle, on license plate holder proud to say goodbye to a test. Seek outside trainings in the form of county fire schools volunteer firefighters are losers and have not even to.

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